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In addition, R134a refrigerants are not only used in auto air conditioners, they can be used in freezers, aerosol cans, and refrigerators. In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . Note that passwords are case-sensitive. leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . 5. Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. hardly noticable. I recommend replacing the expansion valve when you do the swap. But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Though - the valve for a 1991 says R12 on it, and for a 1994, it says R-134a. video clubhouse baseball; nick fairley draft profile; ben davis work pants You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. These efforts to balance the system can not be realized if there are problems within the a/c system, such as: poor performing compressor, dirty condenser or poor air flow through the condenser, malfunctioning expansion valve, water or air in the system, improperly operating fresh air or heat input in the climate-air mixing system. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. If the charge is low the compressor will cycle on/off in the max AC position. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. The ozone depletion potential of a chemical is a factor that shows the level of degradation itll cause to the ozone layer that surrounds and secures the earth from harmful radiation. Can I order a valve based on the original eaton number? Any ideas from the info above? Additionally, R134a was introduced as a replacement for R22 and R12 in high and medium-temperature refrigeration systems like domestic and commercial chillers. Instead of using R12, its preferable to use R134a because it is very easy to find in the market, its sold at an affordable price, and is environmentally friendly. Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. The expansion valve is designed so that the temperature of the refrigerant at the evaporator outlet must have 8 to 12F (4 to 7C) of superheat before more refrigerant is allowed to enter the evaporator. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. #19. Next I'll jumper the aux fan. Compressor. R-134a can actually cool better than R-12 in a well designed R-134a system as it has better thermoconductive properties, but all the high pressure issues have to be addressed.But even when these cars were brand new, didn't cool worth a damned, recall almost dying in one in Las Vegas at the time, but a good way to lose weight with gallons of perspiration pouring out, just don't let that drip on the seats, that is inappropriate. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. You can also check the Aux fan in your case. don't know enough about the subject to explain the choices.However, a few days ago I called the dealer to see about an OEM TEV and they said something that made me feel a little bit better; the same part number superceded every application back to the '60s, and that they couldn't do that without engineering signing off on it.Still, I would feel a lot better if I could see something written officially that compared the flow characteristics and performance of r12 and 134a TEVs are concluded that they were interchangeable in automotive applications.If someone knows of such a document I would sleep much better!Walt Edited: Mon September 12, 2005 at 8:13 PM by wamcneil. = R134a Charge Level. J.Harris said: Or if you want to do it like they do in Mexico you can use propane, it's an excellent refrigerant but highly flammable. ). If your car does not have a high pressure cut-out switch in the AC system then youll need to have one installed (call us if you need help). #4. Big . 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . Replace the drier with a drier that has a desiccant that is R134a compatible, use new R134a o-rings. 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. and feeds it through an expansion valve. With the A/c off hi and lo were both at 105psi. The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. Biggest you can fit in there is best. The exact amount will vary with each car. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Given two identical vehicles, each with the same weighted amount of refrigerant, the vehicle with the R134a has the capability to remove more heat (measured in btus) from the vehicle than the same type of vehicle using the same amount of R12. Therefore, its most suitable for both commercial and domestic environments. Can I use the one for the R-12? It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. This drop can affect energy consumption since the plant will operate for a longer period or a larger plant will have to be installed. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. And by matching the correct amount of R134a to use in a given vehicle, correcting the superheat of the expansion valve (if necessary), you can in some manner nearly balance or match the amount of heat drawn out by the evaporator and released by the condenser. The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. Is the information not applicable to the old Pantera system? Thomas Jefferson, Thanks,OK, I'm starting to feel a little better about it. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Production of R12 ceased in 1996, although it can still be reclaimed, purified, and resold, and small cans of New Old Stock R12 are still widely available on eBay and Craigslist. Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. Temp switch works the aux fan. Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. It is perhaps possible to locate a unit with a company that purchases close out or distressed merchandise. Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. Ensure you contact a professional mechanic to do the work for you so you dont end up incurring more costs for yourself. I could easily be over at least 2 - 3 ounces over on the oil. If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. R134a and R12 are both refrigerants used in vehicle air conditioning systems. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. I've done the FSM test and with 81F ambient, the vent should be 50F. By: james smith underoath; Comments: 0 . It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. Only show this user. R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! You may have heard of a friend that did the job himself with borrowed equipment and 12 or 16 ounce cans of refrigerant. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. We recently created this blog site to enable us to share our knowledge with other automotive mechanics and car owners. B. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. The common problem when converting from R12 to R134a is lack of knowledge or equipment. George Bray on Wed August 31, 2005 5:03 PM I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. The experimental values of C.O.P.H obtained with the R134a/ester charge were 20.2% Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts. Also, they are mostly used in refrigeration and automotive air conditioning systems. . Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. When the sensor detects the refrigerant leak the sniffers lights glow and the sniffer makes a noise. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. Is checking the temperature of the in and out of the condensor not the easiest way to tell if it is doing a good job or not? But with an R4, better too much than too little.3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12.4) The airflow across the condensor is crucial to good performance. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. Most of all the differences gravitate to longevity, functionality, and safety. Related products. It slowly gets warmer and warmer in the car, even at highway speeds. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. Flush with a garden hose - do not use a high pressure washer - you can bend the fins flat & damage the condensor.B. I'll report back on the aux fan on performance next. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. By noting the ambient temperature you can look up what the preferred high side pressure should be. This is the part that controls the system pressures. Mine was 61, so the system is not working as it is supposed to. At least you do not have 16 ounces in there ( yup seen it before).For now, straighten all of the fins that you can, clean the condensor well, and re-test with the aux fan running. maintain the A/C of older cars. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. I have some experience with auto a/c but not too much. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. R134a was selected as a replacement refrigerant for R12 because R12 contains chlorine and has a major effect to ozone layer depletion. This implies that the discharge pressure of the compressor should be moderate so it can produce the refrigerants condensation in the condenser at the atmospheric temperature. Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. Skin contact: If the R134a (liquid) comes in contact with your skin, it could cause a burn. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. To prevent refrigerant loss you should consider replacing your old hose lines with barrier type hose. In short, NO! a 50f delta across the condensor is good, but I suspect that is an idle reading. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. Since then, the industry standard has been R134a, which is an efficient replacement. Poc temps desprs van decidir unir els dos webs sota el nom de Xarxa Catal, el conjunt de pgines que oferirien de franc sries doblades i/o subtitulades en catal. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. Disconnect the two hose lines to the compressor, protect the ends from getting dirty. Inhalation of vapor: Inhaling a large amount of R134a vapor can lead to drowsiness, temporary nervous system depression, and lethargy. Safe but sorry! Your old hoses of course will not fit. ESP when a compressor has frozen. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. Kommentare . The adjusted tension of this spring is the determining factor in the opening and closing of the expansion valve. You do not however need to replace all the o-rings or seals for a simple conversion, it is simply a logical thing to do when and if the time comes to work or replace certain components because of age issues. MB has specfic test parameters for performance, but you can always test at max load - doors open fan on highest speed.The oil overcharge looks like a parabolic curve. RULES for AOP - Owner Assistance and Contractors, Energy Efficiency and Building Performance Discussion NEW, Carnak Zone/Locked Areas - For Professional Member Only, How To Become a Pro and Rules For Pro Members, Pro Forum: Refrigerants and EPA regulations **NEW, Pro Forum: Residential Refrigeration and Appliances **NEW, Pro Forum: Equipment Recalls and Bulletins **NEW, Pro's Forum: Building Science Discussions, Educational Forums - Open for all in the industry, Welcome to HVAC-Talk's Educational Forums, How to Submit Links, Articles and Quiz Questions, Frequently Asked Questions About Submissions, Physics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow and Combustion, Educational, Training & Reference Information, Manufacturer's Technical Information Links, Electrical Theory, Circuits and Electronics, HVACR Equipment, Components & Accessories, Accessories Humidifiers, Air Cleaners, HRUs, Fans, Filters, etc. In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). Environmental Impact: When R134a escapes into the atmosphere, it contributes to global warming. A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. Besides R134a there are some other refrigerants that are approved to replace R12 and there is a long list of refrigerants that are not approved. Put a relay on the compressor clutch to the aux fan (I like that idea - makes a lot of sense)How does that sound? Heres some important advice Whenever you notice your R12 refrigerant is leaking, turn off all flames and open the doors so it can escape to the open atmosphere. I know this is bad, etc, and deposits on the metal can act as insulators. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. Statisicaly your friend was lucky. The value of carbon dioxide is 1. Electric fans do wear out. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. Rxmechanic.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for website owners to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Trinary Pressure Switch $ 39.99. (You must log in or sign up to reply here. Differences between R-12 and R-134a systems: 1. Though I have seen em run as cold as 12 deg F. If the thermo switch is malfunctioning. If 50 degrees across the cond. Bottom line, R134a simply doesn't cool as well as R12. Catalog E-1, Thermostatic & Automatic Expansion Valves / Page 1 Table of Contents . The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. Agram a retevis rt22 password i bastrop county district clerk records el material que oferim als nostres webs. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? Later model cars that come with 134A will have 134A only connectors. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Moreso, it had been banned. They might say for instance, add 3-4 oz of oil to the compressor, 1 oz of oil for when you replace a drier, 2 oz oil for the evaporator and so on. Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. The reason is that the vehicles, for instance, manufactured currently configure the engine for R1234yf refrigerant, making no provision for replacement. I have a laser temp reader, and it says the temps going into the condensor are up to 160F - coming out it is always around 110 or so. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. However, R134a is better than R12. R134a Refrigerant Recharge Kit with BPV31 Bullet Piercing Valve and R134a Quick Coupler, R134a/R-12/R-22 Freon Refrigerant Hose Can Tap Kit for A/C System - Easy to use. This is 11F off the FSM performance graph - vent should be around 50F. R134a. Fitting a PF condensor is not rocket science, but it requires some planning. Have a look in the FAQ Section, and look for "Fan clutches & testing them". Before landing on the debate of R134 vs R12 you should know that both R134a and R12 are AC refrigerants types used in refrigeration and air conditioning systems. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. I'll put the relay on for that. You are indeed 20% out of the OEM spec for cooling. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . The #1 question asked by NEW MEMBERS. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. system of 0.33 TR and refrigerant used was R12. I don't have the FSM matrix handy for that 123.123, but a 123.133 shows a test rpm of 2,000 - and vent temps between 54f & 66f at 91f to 95f ambient. Does it matter - assuming both are new & uncontaminated? |. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. A good T/C, clamped to the line & insulated gives a repeatable measurement of the tube. It was later found that R-134a had a very high Global Warming Potential, or GWP, number. The system will be checked for gross leaks while under vacuum. Expansion Valve. R1234yf. R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. Look at where the lines will end up. The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. of coiled cap tube on VCR system with R134a. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. This can be very very expensive. I used a full can of evap cleaner. Welcome to rxmechanic.com. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. Hmmmm. R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. . R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . You do not have to split up the 5-6 oz of oil and add it to each component, just simply put it all in the compressor as it will move throughout the whole system once the system is operational. At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. How dumb!I will jumper the aux fan and redo the test. With the knowledge of the differences, youll be able to draw a comparison between R12 vs R134a efficiency. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1991Make: Jaguar Model: XJ6Engine Size: 4.0. Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. The safe high side pressures are determined with a PT (pressures and temperatures) chart. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. How about evacing 1 pound of refrig from the system, and then putting 1 lb of pure R12 back in? He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. Make sure visiually that no large gaps exist that would allow the air to bypass the condensor on the way to the radiator.B. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. It is a known suspect that lets heat into the heat exchanger/core even when off because the mono-valve is on the exit side of the heater core. However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased.